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	<title>Comments on: Should I Pay Off My Mortgage Early Or Invest?</title>
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		<title>By: » Should I Pay Off My Home Mortgage Early Or Invest?</title>
		<link>http://frugaldad.com/2009/02/24/should-i-pay-off-my-mortgage/#comment-42131</link>
		<dc:creator>» Should I Pay Off My Home Mortgage Early Or Invest?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jun 2010 14:35:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://frugaldad.com/?p=1810#comment-42131</guid>
		<description>[...] 10 month emergency fund, and are ready to embark on the next steps in life.  Building wealth and paying off the mortgage early. So today I thought I would talk about the idea behind making extra payments on your mortage in [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] 10 month emergency fund, and are ready to embark on the next steps in life.  Building wealth and paying off the mortgage early. So today I thought I would talk about the idea behind making extra payments on your mortage in [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Financial Independence: When Your Income Matches Your Outgo, Without Working for Money</title>
		<link>http://frugaldad.com/2009/02/24/should-i-pay-off-my-mortgage/#comment-40986</link>
		<dc:creator>Financial Independence: When Your Income Matches Your Outgo, Without Working for Money</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 May 2010 09:02:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://frugaldad.com/?p=1810#comment-40986</guid>
		<description>[...] topics. It&#8217;s something I one day hope to achieve through a variety of sacrifices, such as paying off our mortgage early, building savings inside and outside of retirement accounts, and sticking to a frugal [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] topics. It&#8217;s something I one day hope to achieve through a variety of sacrifices, such as paying off our mortgage early, building savings inside and outside of retirement accounts, and sticking to a frugal [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://frugaldad.com/2009/02/24/should-i-pay-off-my-mortgage/#comment-39928</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Apr 2010 03:24:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://frugaldad.com/?p=1810#comment-39928</guid>
		<description>or a &quot;chimp&quot; or a &quot;smoothie&quot; or a &quot;savant&quot;? If you can&#039;t swim...learn. 8 out of 10 -- how much &quot;little math&quot; did you do to come to that conclusion? You can have the last word, but first, clean up your cubicle or you&#039;re not going to get that 2 dollar raise you&#039;re pining for.....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>or a &#8220;chimp&#8221; or a &#8220;smoothie&#8221; or a &#8220;savant&#8221;? If you can&#8217;t swim&#8230;learn. 8 out of 10 &#8212; how much &#8220;little math&#8221; did you do to come to that conclusion? You can have the last word, but first, clean up your cubicle or you&#8217;re not going to get that 2 dollar raise you&#8217;re pining for&#8230;..</p>
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		<title>By: Pedro</title>
		<link>http://frugaldad.com/2009/02/24/should-i-pay-off-my-mortgage/#comment-39796</link>
		<dc:creator>Pedro</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Apr 2010 13:16:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://frugaldad.com/?p=1810#comment-39796</guid>
		<description>@Mike
&quot;Dave Ramsey is a sheep herder&quot; ...[1/9/2010] &quot;Don’t be a lemming&quot; [1/30/2010]
&quot;please leave my cans upright when you empty them each week&quot; [3/26/2010].
and yet
&quot;Bottom line issue with your posts (or advice as you like to call it), 
is that you have not conceded (as I have) that one solution does not fit all&quot; [3/29/2010]!!

I readily concede that one solution does not fit all  AND I salute your newfound moderation in tone.

MY bottom line issue with your posts, sir,  is that you&#039;ve done a little math and found an investment strategy that you like.
Having done so, you have come onto this forum to berate a bunch of people whose gut-level understanding of risk  is leading them to a strategy that might well be &quot;better&quot; than yours.  

By &quot;better&quot;, I&#039;ll even concede that what you recommend will likely yield more money 8 times out of 10.  
However, 
(gotta throw this in there because I know you love it when I use metaphors I&#039;ve heard from someone else) 
if you cannot swim, the fact that the average depth of a lake is 3 feet WILL NOT HELP YOU when you&#039;re in the 9 feet deep part.

Translation: people who live well within their means and pay off their mortgages are managing the risk that they will get laid off, become disabled, or otherwise loss significant sources of income.  Even if these unfortunate events never occur and they suffer some opportunity costs based on their actions, that doesn&#039;t necessarily make them wrong. Or sheep. Or lemmings.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Mike<br />
&#8220;Dave Ramsey is a sheep herder&#8221; &#8230;[1/9/2010] &#8220;Don’t be a lemming&#8221; [1/30/2010]<br />
&#8220;please leave my cans upright when you empty them each week&#8221; [3/26/2010].<br />
and yet<br />
&#8220;Bottom line issue with your posts (or advice as you like to call it),<br />
is that you have not conceded (as I have) that one solution does not fit all&#8221; [3/29/2010]!!</p>
<p>I readily concede that one solution does not fit all  AND I salute your newfound moderation in tone.</p>
<p>MY bottom line issue with your posts, sir,  is that you&#8217;ve done a little math and found an investment strategy that you like.<br />
Having done so, you have come onto this forum to berate a bunch of people whose gut-level understanding of risk  is leading them to a strategy that might well be &#8220;better&#8221; than yours.  </p>
<p>By &#8220;better&#8221;, I&#8217;ll even concede that what you recommend will likely yield more money 8 times out of 10.<br />
However,<br />
(gotta throw this in there because I know you love it when I use metaphors I&#8217;ve heard from someone else)<br />
if you cannot swim, the fact that the average depth of a lake is 3 feet WILL NOT HELP YOU when you&#8217;re in the 9 feet deep part.</p>
<p>Translation: people who live well within their means and pay off their mortgages are managing the risk that they will get laid off, become disabled, or otherwise loss significant sources of income.  Even if these unfortunate events never occur and they suffer some opportunity costs based on their actions, that doesn&#8217;t necessarily make them wrong. Or sheep. Or lemmings.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://frugaldad.com/2009/02/24/should-i-pay-off-my-mortgage/#comment-39479</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Mar 2010 21:32:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://frugaldad.com/?p=1810#comment-39479</guid>
		<description>Pedro: Bottom line issue with your posts (or advice as you like to call it), is that you have not conceded (as I have) that one solution does not fit all.  You summarized my point by saying I think keeping a mortgage balance for as long as possible is a good thing -- not true.  Once again, there are many factors to consider for each individual situation -- emergency fund, job security, cash flow, investment knowledge, risk tolerance, college funding, age, credit environment, interest rates, retirement funding etc. etc.  Your theories, links, formulas mean nothing -- each person&#039;s situation is different and one size does not fit all -- despite what your text book says (you gotta be an engineer or an actuary).  For me, the solution lies somewhere between total leverage and no leverage.  And AAPL hit a new high today, glad I didn&#039;t sell those shares at a 45% gain to pay the house off, because the new high now represents a 92% gain.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pedro: Bottom line issue with your posts (or advice as you like to call it), is that you have not conceded (as I have) that one solution does not fit all.  You summarized my point by saying I think keeping a mortgage balance for as long as possible is a good thing &#8212; not true.  Once again, there are many factors to consider for each individual situation &#8212; emergency fund, job security, cash flow, investment knowledge, risk tolerance, college funding, age, credit environment, interest rates, retirement funding etc. etc.  Your theories, links, formulas mean nothing &#8212; each person&#8217;s situation is different and one size does not fit all &#8212; despite what your text book says (you gotta be an engineer or an actuary).  For me, the solution lies somewhere between total leverage and no leverage.  And AAPL hit a new high today, glad I didn&#8217;t sell those shares at a 45% gain to pay the house off, because the new high now represents a 92% gain.</p>
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		<title>By: Pedro</title>
		<link>http://frugaldad.com/2009/02/24/should-i-pay-off-my-mortgage/#comment-39439</link>
		<dc:creator>Pedro</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Mar 2010 20:44:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://frugaldad.com/?p=1810#comment-39439</guid>
		<description>Mike - you&#039;re not a chimp, you&#039;re &quot;like&quot; a chimp with a handgun, in that you mean no harm, but someone who takes your advice could get hurt anyway.

It&#039;s also clear that you don&#039;t know

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruin_theory
http://risktheory.net/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expected_utility_hypothesis

what you don&#039;t know, and it appears you are unlikely to learn.

Good luck anyway, things will probably work out ok for you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike &#8211; you&#8217;re not a chimp, you&#8217;re &#8220;like&#8221; a chimp with a handgun, in that you mean no harm, but someone who takes your advice could get hurt anyway.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s also clear that you don&#8217;t know</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruin_theory" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruin_theory</a><br />
<a href="http://risktheory.net/" rel="nofollow">http://risktheory.net/</a><br />
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expected_utility_hypothesis" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expected_utility_hypothesis</a></p>
<p>what you don&#8217;t know, and it appears you are unlikely to learn.</p>
<p>Good luck anyway, things will probably work out ok for you.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://frugaldad.com/2009/02/24/should-i-pay-off-my-mortgage/#comment-39438</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Mar 2010 20:18:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://frugaldad.com/?p=1810#comment-39438</guid>
		<description>Pedro - I may be a chimp but you still haven&#039;t explained why i should pay off my house if i can afford the payment and have a 250k to 750k loan to value ratio.  Maybe the numbers are too big for you -- lets say: your trailer is worth $75k, and you owe $25k and you can make your $325 monthly pmt without difficulty -- should you pay it off?  You try to disguise your ignorance with dumb metaphors and equally useless movie quotes.  (By the way, re-writing others thoughts does make you a sheep).  And please leave my cans upright when you empty them each week.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pedro &#8211; I may be a chimp but you still haven&#8217;t explained why i should pay off my house if i can afford the payment and have a 250k to 750k loan to value ratio.  Maybe the numbers are too big for you &#8212; lets say: your trailer is worth $75k, and you owe $25k and you can make your $325 monthly pmt without difficulty &#8212; should you pay it off?  You try to disguise your ignorance with dumb metaphors and equally useless movie quotes.  (By the way, re-writing others thoughts does make you a sheep).  And please leave my cans upright when you empty them each week.</p>
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		<title>By: Pedro</title>
		<link>http://frugaldad.com/2009/02/24/should-i-pay-off-my-mortgage/#comment-39389</link>
		<dc:creator>Pedro</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Mar 2010 15:15:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://frugaldad.com/?p=1810#comment-39389</guid>
		<description>Mike&#039;s argument is that you can arbitrage expected higher returns in the stock market against lower interest rates on your mortgage to help you generate wealth: the expected value of the higher return in equities makes keeping a mortgage balance for as long as possible &quot;a good thing&quot;.

A real-life example of why maximizing the expected value of the return is not always the way to go:
When you buy homeowner&#039;s insurance that is correctly priced, you will ALWAYS pay more than the expected value of any loss you might suffer.

In order for your insurance company to remain viable, your insurance premium must cover
1) the annual expected value of any loss you will suffer.
2) administrative costs (administering billing/premium collections, paying adjusters to evaluate your claim when you suffer a loss, determining and filing insurance rates, underwriting &amp; pricing your policy, paying agents&#039; commissions, etc.)
3) a PROFIT for the insurance company.

Paying for all of the above means paying a premium that is, on average, MUCH higher than the average loss suffered by a group of similar properties in a given year.

Despite the fact that, on average (like investing in the stock market vs. paying down your mortgage) you would come out ahead skipping homeowner&#039;s insurance and investing the premium, reasonable people would rightly view someone who chose to &quot;go it alone&quot; as an idiot.

This is because not all dollars are created equal.

$400,000 LOST to a house fire (for argument&#039;s sake, with a probability of 0.0015 X 400,000 = an expected loss of $600) 

is much more BAD than $800 GAINED in saved insurance premiums is GOOD.

That is, for most folks (and rightly so), investment losses have a higher negative utility (they &quot;hurt&quot; more) than similar investment gains have positive utility. People intuitively get this. It doesn&#039;t make them &quot;sheep&quot;, it is actually very reasonable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike&#8217;s argument is that you can arbitrage expected higher returns in the stock market against lower interest rates on your mortgage to help you generate wealth: the expected value of the higher return in equities makes keeping a mortgage balance for as long as possible &#8220;a good thing&#8221;.</p>
<p>A real-life example of why maximizing the expected value of the return is not always the way to go:<br />
When you buy homeowner&#8217;s insurance that is correctly priced, you will ALWAYS pay more than the expected value of any loss you might suffer.</p>
<p>In order for your insurance company to remain viable, your insurance premium must cover<br />
1) the annual expected value of any loss you will suffer.<br />
2) administrative costs (administering billing/premium collections, paying adjusters to evaluate your claim when you suffer a loss, determining and filing insurance rates, underwriting &amp; pricing your policy, paying agents&#8217; commissions, etc.)<br />
3) a PROFIT for the insurance company.</p>
<p>Paying for all of the above means paying a premium that is, on average, MUCH higher than the average loss suffered by a group of similar properties in a given year.</p>
<p>Despite the fact that, on average (like investing in the stock market vs. paying down your mortgage) you would come out ahead skipping homeowner&#8217;s insurance and investing the premium, reasonable people would rightly view someone who chose to &#8220;go it alone&#8221; as an idiot.</p>
<p>This is because not all dollars are created equal.</p>
<p>$400,000 LOST to a house fire (for argument&#8217;s sake, with a probability of 0.0015 X 400,000 = an expected loss of $600) </p>
<p>is much more BAD than $800 GAINED in saved insurance premiums is GOOD.</p>
<p>That is, for most folks (and rightly so), investment losses have a higher negative utility (they &#8220;hurt&#8221; more) than similar investment gains have positive utility. People intuitively get this. It doesn&#8217;t make them &#8220;sheep&#8221;, it is actually very reasonable.</p>
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		<title>By: Pedro</title>
		<link>http://frugaldad.com/2009/02/24/should-i-pay-off-my-mortgage/#comment-39382</link>
		<dc:creator>Pedro</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Mar 2010 14:28:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://frugaldad.com/?p=1810#comment-39382</guid>
		<description>Mike McDermott: Listen, here&#039;s the thing. If you can&#039;t spot the sucker in the first half hour at the table, then you ARE the sucker. 
&quot;Rounders&quot; - first line.

Of course, 
&quot;we shouldn’t just assume that mortage lenders always know what they are doing, as 2 of the largest ones became insolvent as a result of bad mortgage loans&quot;
is a point well made, and well taken.

MY beef with above financial savant above is that, in grasping the concept of maximum expected value, he thinks he understands EVERYTHING about finance and investing.  Even though he is blind to risk, utility, and ruin theory.

Like a chimpanzee with a handgun, he means no harm, and yet...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike McDermott: Listen, here&#8217;s the thing. If you can&#8217;t spot the sucker in the first half hour at the table, then you ARE the sucker.<br />
&#8220;Rounders&#8221; &#8211; first line.</p>
<p>Of course,<br />
&#8220;we shouldn’t just assume that mortage lenders always know what they are doing, as 2 of the largest ones became insolvent as a result of bad mortgage loans&#8221;<br />
is a point well made, and well taken.</p>
<p>MY beef with above financial savant above is that, in grasping the concept of maximum expected value, he thinks he understands EVERYTHING about finance and investing.  Even though he is blind to risk, utility, and ruin theory.</p>
<p>Like a chimpanzee with a handgun, he means no harm, and yet&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Gman</title>
		<link>http://frugaldad.com/2009/02/24/should-i-pay-off-my-mortgage/#comment-39364</link>
		<dc:creator>Gman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Mar 2010 23:02:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://frugaldad.com/?p=1810#comment-39364</guid>
		<description>I am not sure how much the whole &quot;if paying off your mortgage is such a bad idea, why do banks lend it in the first place&quot; argument is worth.  Banks are lending multi billions of dollars in mortgages so they do not have all the investment options that you have.  Earning 5% on billions is a lot harder than 5% on 100k.  Also, we shouldn&#039;t just assume that mortage lenders always know what they are doing, as 2 of the largest ones became insolvent as a result of bad mortgage loans :)

Paying off a mortgage cam very well be smart, but I am not sure on that specific argument.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am not sure how much the whole &#8220;if paying off your mortgage is such a bad idea, why do banks lend it in the first place&#8221; argument is worth.  Banks are lending multi billions of dollars in mortgages so they do not have all the investment options that you have.  Earning 5% on billions is a lot harder than 5% on 100k.  Also, we shouldn&#8217;t just assume that mortage lenders always know what they are doing, as 2 of the largest ones became insolvent as a result of bad mortgage loans <img src='http://frugaldad.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Paying off a mortgage cam very well be smart, but I am not sure on that specific argument.</p>
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